JH, I posted most of your most recent comment. Interesting. Prefer to have non-insulting, on topic comments. Like mine on De Goostibus.
Anyway, are traditional catholics required to respect the lutherans, and evangelicals? Not really. (I'm pretty much a catholic, well, except for the cracker, and the confession. Vaya con dios!)
since the second vatican council the official doctrine is the one church doctrine with many open doors...efforts to do more by way of understanding than critiqueing the ecumenical spirit ignited by the magisterium in 1960 has now been taken up by the laity protestants now participate in our monastic prayer quite frequently and we enjoy an "exception" to the rule of intercommunion...in most places noncatholics are forbidden to partake of the sacrament...here there are many who come forth quite at ease the main thrust of dialogue these days seems to be "what do we hold in common" rather than "how are we different"
when john & i were at st john's we arrived mid-year and apparently missed some sort of explanation that was given to the resident scholars regarding communion as st john's
we were directed to an article that fr kevin seasoltz had written which articulated the conditions under which intercommunion was permissible by canon law
the writings of pope john paul II played large role in his arguments
as i recall the three conditions were:
1) the person must ask for it. it is not freely offered as open communion
2) the person must be away from his or her home church and thus unable to take communion there
3) the person must believe the same things about communion as orthodox catholic doctrine
my decision to partake of communion there was anything but easy some of the other scholars there seemed to treat it as freely offered intercommunion which makes me wonder if what was said at the fall orientation was more welcoming than seasoltz's article
not having ever thought much about what i believed about communion i was left struggling to know whether or not my beliefs were orthodox enough to allow me to partake but then for some of the catholic writers that i was reading regarding science and religion like john haught it was not entirely clear to what extent he even believed in the Christian God revealed in the Bible so i thought if this guy's belief's are orthodox enough surely mine are more so
but i still had this unrealistic fear that some scrupulous monk might take me aside and ask me to explain the transubstantiation to test whether my beliefs are correct enough or ask me why i don't just find some protestant church down the road in st joe's or st cloud maybe st john's is not far enough away from the nearest protestant church to make condition #2 applicable
ultimately it came down to a day when i simply felt that i needed the real help of the real presence of christ and so went forward and received
it is still a little uncomfortable for me each time i return to st john's wondering whether i should or shouldn't join in the communion
mostly i tell myself hey i already made that decision there is no reason to re-open it
sally i would hate to dismiss the thoughts you have about receiving communion for i would suppose that they help you to understand yourself as a christian in relationship to me to your church to all christians
the REAL presence is something about which i feel strongly but that presence is multivalenced
some years ago there was a bit of a crisis in the theology school with the increase of lay students they were experimenting with intercommunion and one of the catholic students balked and wrote his bishop and the practice was stopped
in the monastery there is the argument of local custom which rome takes seriously and it has been argued that the existence of the ecumenical institute is reason enough to allow for a limited intercommunion -- and as i recall it was kevin who articualted that principle for us
i think within the monastery itself there is the general acceptance of the practice and nobody that i can think of would confront anyone else on the issue
in fact the offical canon law states that communion cannot be withheld from anyone who comes forth
yet like many things in the catholic church there are ifs ands and buts casuistic and apodictic haggling is a way of life for us i fear
the intention must be in your heart and only you can know what that is but i think there is always a place for a "confession" not in the strict sacramental practice sense of 'going to confession' but the idea that ones actions speak of ones heart in matters of religion where and what that place might be for you i don't know but i trust your life enough to say that you seek to live what you believe and if catholic communion at st john's strenghens that well then so be it
it seems to me you are respectful in other catholic places with the suggestion of receptivity to a blessing
somehow i think that all our differences as christians will have to come to bear at the altar of sacrifice and communion
another way to think about kevin s's points is that we can make no distinction in the sacrament -- for the eucharist offered and received in rome at the vatican on any and every given day is the same communion we share here
the important thing seems to be the desire you express - and i think it is good
the american catholic writer walker percy articulated his theme "we are all bad catholics" in many different ways in his novels
10 comments:
Indubitably!
wow
no mention of
cyber nemesis
there's hope
Well, this post might be construed as a sort of Ode to the Mind of K-O, aka a Null Set.
shoulda known better
JH, I posted most of your most recent comment. Interesting. Prefer to have non-insulting, on topic comments. Like mine on De Goostibus.
Anyway, are traditional catholics required to respect the lutherans, and evangelicals? Not really. (I'm pretty much a catholic, well, except for the cracker, and the confession. Vaya con dios!)
since the second vatican council the official doctrine is the one church doctrine with many open doors...efforts to do more by way of understanding than critiqueing
the ecumenical spirit ignited by the magisterium in 1960 has now been taken up by the laity
protestants now participate in our monastic prayer quite frequently
and we enjoy an "exception" to the rule of intercommunion...in most places noncatholics are forbidden to partake of the sacrament...here there are many who come forth quite at ease
the main thrust of dialogue these days seems to be
"what do we hold in common"
rather than
"how are we different"
ZERO-SIX HUNDRED HOUR PILGRIM!
and SERGEANT KIRBY says GIMME FIFTY!
RAHT NOW. Fifty lines of iambic pentameter, like.
Yr palsie Sarge Kirby now back to his usual Al Haig meets greeting card rhetoric. Rez ipsa loquitur
when john & i were at st john's
we arrived mid-year
and apparently missed some sort
of explanation that was given
to the resident scholars
regarding communion as st john's
we were directed to an article
that fr kevin seasoltz had written
which articulated the conditions
under which intercommunion
was permissible by canon law
the writings of pope john paul II
played large role in his arguments
as i recall the three conditions were:
1) the person must ask for it.
it is not freely offered as open communion
2) the person must be away from his or her home church and thus unable to take communion there
3) the person must believe the same things about communion as orthodox catholic doctrine
my decision to partake of communion there
was anything but easy
some of the other scholars there
seemed to treat it as freely offered intercommunion
which makes me wonder if what was said
at the fall orientation
was more welcoming
than seasoltz's article
not having ever thought much
about what i believed about communion
i was left struggling to know
whether or not my beliefs
were orthodox enough to allow me to partake
but then for some of the catholic writers
that i was reading
regarding science and religion
like john haught
it was not entirely clear
to what extent he even believed
in the Christian God revealed in the Bible
so i thought if this guy's belief's
are orthodox enough
surely mine are more so
but i still had
this unrealistic fear
that some scrupulous monk
might take me aside
and ask me to explain the transubstantiation
to test whether my beliefs are correct enough
or ask me why i don't just find
some protestant church down the road
in st joe's or st cloud
maybe st john's is not
far enough away from the nearest
protestant church to make
condition #2 applicable
ultimately it came down to a day
when i simply felt that i needed
the real help of the real presence of christ
and so went forward and received
it is still a little uncomfortable
for me each time i return to st john's
wondering whether i should or shouldn't
join in the communion
mostly i tell myself
hey i already made that decision
there is no reason to re-open it
sally
i would hate to dismiss the thoughts
you have about receiving communion for i would suppose that they help you to understand yourself as a christian
in relationship to me to your church to all christians
the REAL presence is something about which i feel strongly but
that presence is multivalenced
some years ago there was a bit of a crisis in the theology school with the increase of lay students
they were experimenting with intercommunion and one of the catholic students balked and wrote his bishop and the practice was stopped
in the monastery there is the argument of local custom which rome takes seriously and it has been argued that the existence of the ecumenical institute is reason enough to allow for a limited intercommunion -- and as i recall it was kevin who articualted that principle for us
i think within the monastery itself there is the general acceptance of the practice and nobody that i can think of would confront anyone else on the issue
in fact the offical canon law states that communion cannot be withheld from anyone who comes forth
yet like many things in the catholic church there are ifs ands and buts
casuistic and apodictic haggling is a way of life for us i fear
the intention must be in your heart
and only you can know what that is
but i think there is always a place for a "confession" not in the strict sacramental practice sense of 'going to confession' but the idea that ones actions speak of ones heart in matters of religion
where and what that place might be for you i don't know but i trust your life enough to say that you seek to live what you believe and if catholic communion at st john's strenghens that well then so be it
it seems to me you are respectful in other catholic places with the suggestion of receptivity to a blessing
somehow i think that all our differences as christians will have to come to bear at the altar of sacrifice and communion
another way to think about kevin s's points is that we can make no distinction in the sacrament -- for the eucharist offered and received in rome at the vatican on any and every given day is the same communion we share here
the important thing seems to be the desire you express - and i think it is good
the american catholic writer walker percy articulated his theme "we are all bad catholics"
in many different ways in his novels
maybe i should do more untitled posts here
"we are all bad catholics"
i like that
thnks for the reply
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