Friday, September 23, 2011
it behooves us to get it right
Principles that are mistakenly high and strict are a trap; they may easily lead in the end directly or indirectly to the justification of monstrous things. Thus if the evangelical counsel about poverty were turned into a precept forbidding property owning, people would pay lip service to it as the ideal, while in practice they went in for swindling. “Absolute honesty!” it would be said: “I can respect that – but of course that means having no property; and while I respect those who follow that course, I have to compromise with the sordid world myself.” If then one must “compromise with evil” by owning property and engaging in trade then the amount of swindling one does will depend on convenience. This imaginary case is paralleled by what is so commonly said: absolute pacifism is an ideal; unable to follow that, and committed to “compromise with evil,” one must go whole hog and wage war a outrance….
[P]acifism teaches people to make no distinction between the shedding of innocent blood and the shedding of any human blood. And in this way pacifism has corrupted enormous numbers of people who will not act according to its tenets. They become convinced that a number of things are wicked which are not; hence, seeing no way of avoiding “wickedness,” they set no limits to it. How endlessly pacifists argue that all war must be a outrance! that those who wage war must go as far as technological advance permits in the destruction of the enemy’s people. As if the Napoleonic wars were perforce fuller of massacres than the French war of Henry V of England. It is not true: the reverse took place… Pacifism and the respect for pacifism is not the only thing that has led to a universal forgetfulness of the law against killing the innocent; but it has had a great share in it.
-G.E.M. Anscombe, War and Murder.
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9 comments:
I agree in part--yet Miss Anscombe was an English dame,right--directing her remarks to some brits. who did not want the UK to get involved in WWI (or is this..WWII? Slight difference) . What about the German view? Support the Kaiser?? Or..few years later, Der Fuhrer and Vaterland?
JPII did not support BushCo in Iraq. So at times, even the RCC has advocated non-interference, and opposed nationalism.
it sounds to me like anscombe
is arguing for precisely
the type of thoughtful discrimination
tbat JPII exercised--
not that war is always wrong
but the particular war that BushCo
promulgated in Iraq was wrong
still
i don't understand
or am not sure i agree with
her argument that holding pacifism
as an ideal necessarily leads one
to go whole hog into waging war to excess
it is not the ideal of pacifism
that is the problem
but rather (as anscombe states
at the beginning of this passage)
holding any ideal too rigidly
without discriminating thought
this compromise with the world
that she talks about
also reminds me of kirby's talk
of the two kingdoms
if this turns into and actual discussion i don't know what i'll do...anyway
here's what i think dr anscombe was looking at
having lived through two world wars she observed that pacifim in britain was essentially the growing thinking that perhaps marxism was the right thing for making society just and there were ardent defenders of it who called themselves anti war good people but and but and but
they wanted to protect their vision
of a peaceful society according to the nonclass strife-free no conflict pattern of the ultimate marxian vision and these people i think she saw them thus these people held to this vision of a peaceful land of great britain well defended against the horror of inimical powers from without so then justified waging war against them for presuming otherwise
the catholic stance at least as it was voiced by JPII and thanks so much sally for the reference he pretty much stated that given the dangerous nature of atomic weapons and the danger to the world it would be almost impossible to justify a just war
maybe elizabeth anscombe is really saying listen you want to be a pacifist there is only really one way and it's been done on the cross and that's the model no other model has been successful
she's pointing out the hypocricy
inherent in idealized anything particularly broad sweeping social agendas...it's like saying o american democracy the most peaceful program in the world uh huh evidence all over the place altruistic smiling adherents marching in parades o what a wonderful hopeful sight
is anyone discouraged
well if so
good luck i have no
advice for you
i think anscombe is doing what jesus often did redirect moral inquiry to ones' own heart
i may be off on this
i'm often off on something or another
i'm off with the guys
off and away
adventures o yes it is dangerous out there
but the sun is shining
yo
jh
In other words, Frater Hanson gives the good altar boy response: follow orders from El Papa.
Did the Pope support the cause of the Allies WWI? Not sure. WWII...eventually he did. That is, like after the ..Concordat, more or less giving his blessing to...Hitler (tho' granted..the nazis broke several of the terms).
pius XII loathed hitler but probably came around to praying for the poor wretch's soul
catholic pacifism is pretty well rooted now in the scriptural awareness of the social gospel the seeming constant reminder on the part of christ that this world counts for something there's justice to pursue here and
there are better ways than fighting and killing
but it's a long haul for sure
cultural backsliding is the norm no doubt
always a bloody affair sooner or later it seems
when the knights templar return there might be justice
smirk smile chuckle splurf kakcle spew blubber gufaw hiss moan smile smirk sniffle grunt
anybody wanna be a mercenary
jh
ing Bonaparte, and war as a noble end? Miss Anscombe the romantic! Was this before her conversion to the RCC or not. She sounds nearly..Hegelian.
Re-reading a bit of material on Pacelli (later Pius XII), he does seem fairly impressive yet....the Pope and cardinals did agree to the Reichkoncordat (in 33--already the nazis had started putsches etc) and to Mussolini. He said it was done with a "gun at his head". Yet they could have ...refused--not sent the nuncio etc. As with much of the history of the RCC the tradition seems so thick... and takes years--for just moderate reform. Thats not to say reform is always good--but as with Gallileo not being recognized for a few centuries, other modern science, or evolution,etc. the dogma is ...like a massive cathedral itself.
That said, I think that everyone should be required to study Latin (including ...Merikun protestants). But it was ..say in Jefferson's day--part of the public school curriculum. You read some Caesar or Cicero, whether cat. or not. RE Lee was a capable latinist.
the reichconcordat was a means of securing some autonomy and protection for catholic schools hitler almost immediately defied the principles in the concordat and pius and the bishops all regretted the diplomacy effort
it was a moment of real despair
in rome
and hitler reacted by trying to topple rome
he might've won europe had he not tried that
jh
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