At the very beginning of my creative life I loved humanity. I wanted to do something good for mankind. Soon I understood that it isn't possible to save mankind.
in some ways it is a perfectly selfish perception of course nobody can save humanity -others -let alone self yet are we not enjoined to participate in the salvific venture of Christ insofar as we believe what we have heard and understand in fact that by believing we are implicated in something the agenda is about salvation or nothing at all at least I would presume
it's often hard for me to remain optimistic that it will unfold for the greater good or
even that it's worth doing
but's it's the best thing I know
the polish poet might have known that her poems might on the odd chance provide a moment of quiet wonder or even solace
but they pale in meaning before the altar which is Christ
i suppose i resonated with the poet's loss of optimism
i miss the evangelical zeal that i once had i miss the person i once was back when i had an inner hope that there was indeed something salvific about the Christian Gospel back when i believed that at the most fundamental level Protestants and Catholics believe in and have experienced the same Gospel message and that our mutual Christian love for each other is stronger than the areas in which our specific beliefs differ
but somehow in my ecumenical journey i have lost that hope, that faith and that love they been trampled and crushed as time after time it has seemed that my efforts to find a way to express our underlying unity in the Gospel have been met with skepticism and criticism instead of encouragement, respectful engagement or even respectful disagreement
i want to believe in the saving power of God through Christ i want to hear that preached in a way that i can believe it i want to see that power operative in my life and in the lives of my christian brothers and sisters i want to see Christians engage with those from other Christian traditions with an attitude of openness, genuine curiosity and mutual respect instead of arguing about which tradition is more legitimate i want to see us pursuing our on-going conversion toward God together learning from each other and growing closer to each other as we each grow closer to Christ instead of speaking of conversion as a process of changing one's affiliation from one Christian tradition to another Christian tradition i want our Christian love for each other to be stronger than our sense of affiliation with one Christian tradition or another
but when i say things like that i bump up against those who accuse me of being one who waters down doctrine or of being one who develops a privatized version of the faith and my hope that the Gospel of Christ is something that has the power to liberate humanity from sin and to create a human community of love once again becomes crushed under the weight of doctrine
I tend to admire those dedicated pious souls who expect little of this world's human designs and remain constant with things like the rosary or a form of the divine office or devotion and simply do it because it's the way of knowledge and faith...they derive very little by way of satisfaction other than that which comes with remaining dedicated
forgive me for saying so but when I hear or read your words to the effect that you've lost something it sounds a bit like the Israelites /// --- hey let's go back to Egypt let's go back to where there was at least some food god cannot be out here in the barren wilderness
we know so little of god but perhaps he was with you in your journey and provided some working solace so that you'd be strong for and even great journey
john of the cross spoke of the sacred abandonment of the trudging forth blindly in a spiritual atmosphere of deprivation
seek knock ask
I'm often confounded by this simple proposal it doesn't seem to work for me very often at least not in the immediate sense
the most difficult thing is to be open when everything looks barren
it seems to me a matter of course that our spiritual striving is not rewarded with " what I most want " but more like being led to where I'd really rather not go
having some consistent ministry is a sure antidote to spiritual self entrapment I was so edified by Catalina's dedication to the virgin of Guadalupe her life never gets much better than constraints of poverty but she manages to express real joy through it all her prayer life helps her with that I know and she maintained an ardent vigil as we travelled
if I ever had anything to say in your spiritual regard it would sound something like ----maybe you'd see things differently from the serving line in a soup kitchen
it occurs to me that the new missal is loaded with prayers petitions collects and propers which allude to the gospel mandate of unity
I am left with having to accept anew the tepid faith of the followers...including my own
i remain constant with my morning prayer including lectio divina on the mass readings and/or chanting the psalms this is a daily aspect of my life my devotion is not the same as catalina's yet i think it is nonetheless authentically Christian
i don't think my words of loss are like the Israelites wanting to return to Egypt i think they are more like the prodigal son realizing that he used to have a better life than he has now and embarking on the journey of return to the Father
it is not that I am leaving Catholicism to return to Protestant Christianity rather i am seeking in the context of the journey forward to restore the faith hope and love that i have had at various times in the past in my relationship with God so that I can be of better service to God's world
maybe the language of "relationship with God" sounds too protestant too you but i hope that in the service of gospel unity you can be open to allowing me to use my native language
i think my words of loss ARE my way of asking God--to restore to me the joy of salvation of seeking-- the help of the Holy Spirit on my journey of knocking--on the door of the unknown journey ahead
i do not doubt God's presence in the wilderness i do not doubt that my feelings of lostness may be part of an even greater journey i am entirely willing to make that journey i was only commenting that "hey i seem to be in a wilderness here" and hoping for a little sympathy and encouragement from my brother in Christ
my soup kitchen service yesterday was to respond to the call of our friend who lives with schizophrenia and biplar disorder to drive down to San Bernardino and go to Saturday evening Mass with him at the cathedral and then to drive him home to his subsidized apartment in a very low income part of san bernardino and to sit and chat with him and his wife
i don't understand why you see me as someone who turns back at the slightest difficulty and expects to be rewarded with what i most want
I'm sorry I read your words and it sounds like spiritual whining that's the best I can do with describing what I read it comes to me as a persistent discontentment and I honestly don't know what to say how to respond perhaps I'd be wiser to put forth nothing in response somehow I feel implicated by your words that what you sought in catholic circles hasn't panned out and you're approaching the brink of your patience
this mode of exchange is safe at least I don't have to directly face your ire at least not for a few days :)
I'm more than willing to acknowledge that on some very important levels of human interaction you are still quite mysterious to me
recently I've had some encounters with a young woman who speaks in terms of god acting in her life and her being aware of god doing this god doing that I expressed some wonder saying the most I can say is that god's way is completely beyond my comprehension and I have no experience of being prompted or molded or directed by god...if anything mine is a groping in the darkness and I'm content to learn from that point of view
thanks for helping me to understand your perspective i can see how my words could come across as whining
my actual intent was not to whine rather, i felt a little convicted by your comment: "are we not enjoined to participate in the salvific venture of Christ" and i began to wonder why i had resonated with the pessimism of Wislawa Szymbroska
my comment was a sort of thinking aloud (or thinking by writing)in that context i think i felt a little defensive after reading your first comment worried that you were chiding me for having lost faith in the efficacy of God's saving action thus i was trying to discern what had happened to my faith and perhaps also was trying to justify that the weakness of my faith was not due to laxness or enchantment with worldly things but rather was related to the trials i have experienced on my ecumenical journey
my litany of wants was not intended as a complaint but rather as an effort to get in touch with and to rekindle my latent desire for God and for God's reign
i wouldn't say that what i sought in Catholic circles hasn't panned out i still believe that what attracted me to some forms of Catholic theology is real and is present and active within parts of the Catholic Church it's just that the style of theology that most inspires my faith is not emphasized in most parishes (nor do i find it in protestant churches; i hear more of it at st john's than anywhere else i have been) so i need to learn to accept parish life for what it is (and it has many benefits) and to look elsewhere for the theological inspiration that i need through reading, through retreats at monasteries, or perhaps through on-line courses in theology
i am not near the brink of my patience i have been closer to it in the past but i feel much more relaxed now as if i have reached some sort of equilibrium of freedom where i am content to wait and see how my life continues to unfold without judging it i still have episodes of disturbance but they are less frequent and less intense and i seem to be able view them in a slightly more detached manner now this may not be apparent from my words but it feels that way in my experience
i remain committed to the ecumenical endeavor to growing in understanding and appreciation of the value in each of the churches i am not giving up on anything or anyone
i know that some of my words did seem to implicate you and i don't really know what to say about this it is true that i have been strongly influenced by you and by your opinions it is true that i desire your approval more strongly than i should i think my desire for your approval makes it more difficult for me to discern and to be true to my own beliefs and it also may make me a difficult person to be friends with because i may have a hidden agenda (perhaps often hidden from my self) of unrealistically wanting you to agree with and support my theological speculations (and the way that i live out my ecumenical discernment) so that i can feel affirmed by you i may unfairly get angry with you when i don't feel affirmed i acknowledge that this is unfair to you and i apologize for that
the specific statement in my second comment in which i did deliberately implicate you was my use of the phrase "privatized version of the faith" i am not sure whether to apologize for this or not i do feel like you have used that phrase against me in the past and that memory still pains me when you use that phrase in response to things that i (or others) say i feel stifled and shut-down i feel as if you are trying to discourage me (and others) from pursuing greater integration between deposit of faith that has been handed down to us and the personal experience of faith lived in one's own life when i hear that phrase it comes across to me as an overly simplistic attempt to simply dismiss the personal experience of the living faith (rather than engaging with it) whenever that experience seems at the surface to be discordant with the received tradition or when it raises questions that are uncomfortable to face
i do agree that we are hitting upon important differences between Catholic and Protestant spirituality i guess i am assuming that the young woman you mention at the end of your last comment is Protestant (her language sounds evangelical to me) i do use some of that same language myself i am starting to think of that language as being part of the evangelical religious imagination i'm not sure that i really understand what we mean by the phrase "religious imagination", but it seems to be something that supports our faith even if it is not always rationally defensible
i understand and respect and value your own sensibility of God being beyond our comprehension i think there was something about that sensibility that attracted me in my experiences in benedictine monasteries the quiet faithfulness to prayer demonstrated by the daily communal praying of the liturgy of the hours can provide a necessary anchor to balance and support a spirituality that emphasizes God as an intimate friend who makes his dwelling place in us, communicates love and grace to us and gives a personal mission to our lives
To a large extent I have live a God-as-my-friend spirituality. While this type of spirituality has many positive benefits that I still value, it can lead to an anxiety that perhaps what I call "God" is simply the imaginary friend that I have created for myself. The type of spirituality that you describe can be an antidote to that.
9 comments:
how true!
(unfortunately)
i struggle with this
in some ways it is a perfectly selfish perception
of course nobody can save humanity -others -let alone self
yet
are we not enjoined to participate
in the salvific venture of Christ
insofar as we believe what we have heard
and understand in fact that by believing
we are implicated
in something
the agenda is about salvation
or nothing at all
at least I would presume
it's often hard for me to remain optimistic
that it will unfold for the greater good
or
even
that it's worth doing
but's it's the best thing I know
the polish poet might have known that
her poems might on the odd chance provide a moment of
quiet wonder or even solace
but they pale in meaning before the altar
which is Christ
veni sancti spiritus
...
i suppose i resonated
with the poet's loss of optimism
i miss the evangelical zeal that i once had
i miss the person i once was
back when i had an inner hope
that there was indeed something salvific
about the Christian Gospel
back when i believed
that at the most fundamental level
Protestants and Catholics
believe in and have experienced
the same Gospel message
and that our mutual Christian love for each other
is stronger than the areas in which our specific beliefs differ
but somehow in my ecumenical journey
i have lost that hope, that faith and that love
they been trampled and crushed
as time after time
it has seemed that my efforts to find a way
to express our underlying unity in the Gospel
have been met with skepticism and criticism
instead of encouragement, respectful engagement or even respectful disagreement
i want to believe in the saving power of God through Christ
i want to hear that preached in a way that i can believe it
i want to see that power operative in my life and in the lives
of my christian brothers and sisters
i want to see Christians engage with those from other Christian traditions
with an attitude of openness, genuine curiosity and mutual respect
instead of arguing about which tradition is more legitimate
i want to see us pursuing our on-going conversion toward God together
learning from each other and growing closer to each other
as we each grow closer to Christ
instead of speaking of conversion as a process of changing one's affiliation from one Christian tradition to another Christian tradition
i want our Christian love for each other
to be stronger than our sense of affiliation
with one Christian tradition or another
but when i say things like that
i bump up against those
who accuse me of being one who waters down doctrine
or of being one who develops a privatized version of the faith
and my hope that the Gospel of Christ
is something that has the power to liberate humanity from sin
and to create a human community of love
once again becomes crushed under the weight of doctrine
this is the disillusionment
that haunts me now
I tend to admire those dedicated pious souls
who expect little of this world's human designs
and remain constant with things like the rosary
or a form of the divine office or devotion
and simply do it because it's the way of knowledge
and faith...they derive very little by way of satisfaction
other than that which comes with remaining dedicated
forgive me for saying so
but when I hear or read your words
to the effect that you've lost something
it sounds a bit like the Israelites
/// --- hey let's go back to Egypt
let's go back to where there was at least some food
god cannot be out here in the barren wilderness
we know so little of god
but
perhaps he was with you in your
journey and provided some working solace
so that you'd be strong for and even great journey
john of the cross spoke of the sacred abandonment
of the trudging forth blindly
in a spiritual atmosphere of deprivation
seek
knock
ask
I'm often confounded by this simple proposal
it doesn't seem to work for me very often
at least not in the immediate sense
the most difficult thing is to be open
when everything looks barren
it seems to me a matter of course
that our spiritual striving
is not rewarded with
" what I most want "
but more like
being led to where I'd really rather not go
having some consistent ministry
is a sure antidote to spiritual self entrapment
I was so edified by Catalina's dedication to the virgin of Guadalupe
her life never gets much better than constraints of poverty
but she manages to express real joy through it all
her prayer life helps her with that I know
and she maintained an ardent vigil as we travelled
if I ever had anything to say in your spiritual regard
it would sound something like
----maybe you'd see things differently from the serving line in
a soup kitchen
it occurs to me that the new missal is loaded
with prayers petitions collects and propers
which allude to the gospel mandate of unity
I am left with having to accept anew
the tepid faith of the followers...including my own
chin up
*
i remain constant with my morning prayer
including lectio divina on the mass readings
and/or chanting the psalms
this is a daily aspect of my life
my devotion is not the same as catalina's
yet i think it is nonetheless authentically Christian
i don't think my words of loss
are like the Israelites wanting to return to Egypt
i think they are more like
the prodigal son
realizing that he used to have
a better life than he has now
and embarking on the journey
of return to the Father
it is not that I am leaving Catholicism
to return to Protestant Christianity
rather i am seeking
in the context of the journey forward
to restore the faith hope and love
that i have had at various times in the past
in my relationship with God
so that I can be of better service to God's world
maybe the language of "relationship with God"
sounds too protestant too you
but i hope that in the service of gospel unity
you can be open to allowing me to use my native language
i think my words of loss ARE my way
of asking God--to restore to me the joy of salvation
of seeking-- the help of the Holy Spirit on my journey
of knocking--on the door of the unknown journey ahead
i do not doubt God's presence in the wilderness
i do not doubt that my feelings of lostness
may be part of an even greater journey
i am entirely willing to make that journey
i was only commenting that
"hey i seem to be in a wilderness here"
and hoping for a little sympathy and encouragement
from my brother in Christ
my soup kitchen service yesterday
was to respond to the call
of our friend who lives with schizophrenia and biplar disorder
to drive down to San Bernardino
and go to Saturday evening Mass with him at the cathedral
and then to drive him home to his subsidized apartment
in a very low income part of san bernardino
and to sit and chat with him and his wife
i don't understand why you see me
as someone who turns back at the slightest difficulty
and expects to be rewarded with what i most want
I'm sorry
I read your words
and it sounds like spiritual whining
that's the best I can do with
describing what I read
it comes to me as a persistent
discontentment
and I honestly don't know
what to say how to respond
perhaps I'd be wiser to put forth
nothing in response
somehow I feel implicated
by your words
that what you sought in catholic circles hasn't panned out
and you're approaching the brink of your patience
this mode of exchange is safe
at least I don't have to directly face your ire
at least not for a few days :)
I'm more than willing to acknowledge
that on some very important levels
of human interaction
you are still quite mysterious to me
recently I've had some encounters with a young woman
who speaks in terms of god acting in her life
and her being aware of god doing this god doing that
I expressed some wonder saying
the most I can say is that god's way is completely
beyond my comprehension
and I have no experience of being prompted or molded
or directed by god...if anything mine is a groping in the darkness
and I'm content to learn from that point of view
and I can live with that
jh
.....
thanks for helping me to understand your perspective
i can see how my words could come across as whining
my actual intent was not to whine
rather, i felt a little convicted by your comment:
"are we not enjoined to participate
in the salvific venture of Christ"
and i began to wonder why i had resonated
with the pessimism of Wislawa Szymbroska
my comment was a sort of thinking aloud (or thinking by writing)in that context
i think i felt a little defensive after reading your first comment
worried that you were chiding me for having lost faith in
the efficacy of God's saving action
thus i was trying to discern what had happened to my faith
and perhaps also was trying to justify that the weakness of my faith
was not due to laxness or enchantment with worldly things
but rather was related to the trials i have experienced on my ecumenical journey
my litany of wants
was not intended as a complaint
but rather as an effort
to get in touch with and to rekindle
my latent desire for God and for God's reign
i wouldn't say that what i sought in Catholic circles hasn't panned out
i still believe that what attracted me to some forms of Catholic theology is real
and is present and active within parts of the Catholic Church
it's just that the style of theology that most inspires my faith
is not emphasized in most parishes
(nor do i find it in protestant churches; i hear more of it at st john's than anywhere else i have been)
so i need to learn to accept parish life for what it is (and it has many benefits)
and to look elsewhere for the theological inspiration that i need
through reading, through retreats at monasteries,
or perhaps through on-line courses in theology
i am not near the brink of my patience
i have been closer to it in the past
but i feel much more relaxed now
as if i have reached some sort of equilibrium of freedom
where i am content to wait and see how my life continues to unfold
without judging it
i still have episodes of disturbance
but they are less frequent and less intense
and i seem to be able view them in a slightly more detached manner now
this may not be apparent from my words but it feels that way in my experience
i remain committed to the ecumenical endeavor
to growing in understanding and appreciation of the value in each of the churches
i am not giving up on anything or anyone
... to be continued
i know that some of my words did seem to implicate you
and i don't really know what to say about this
it is true that i have been strongly influenced by you and by your opinions
it is true that i desire your approval more strongly than i should
i think my desire for your approval makes it more difficult for me
to discern and to be true to my own beliefs
and it also may make me a difficult person to be friends with
because i may have a hidden agenda (perhaps often hidden from my self)
of unrealistically wanting you to agree with and support my theological speculations
(and the way that i live out my ecumenical discernment)
so that i can feel affirmed by you
i may unfairly get angry with you
when i don't feel affirmed
i acknowledge that this is unfair to you and i apologize for that
the specific statement in my second comment
in which i did deliberately implicate you
was my use of the phrase "privatized version of the faith"
i am not sure whether to apologize for this or not
i do feel like you have used that phrase against me in the past
and that memory still pains me
when you use that phrase in response to things that i (or others) say
i feel stifled and shut-down
i feel as if you are trying to discourage me (and others) from pursuing greater integration
between deposit of faith that has been handed down to us
and the personal experience of faith lived in one's own life
when i hear that phrase it comes across to me as an overly simplistic attempt to simply dismiss the personal experience of the living faith (rather than engaging with it) whenever that experience seems at the surface to be discordant with the received tradition or when it raises questions that are uncomfortable to face
i do agree that we are hitting upon important differences between Catholic and Protestant spirituality
i guess i am assuming that the young woman you mention at the end of your last comment is Protestant (her language sounds evangelical to me)
i do use some of that same language myself
i am starting to think of that language as being part of the evangelical religious imagination
i'm not sure that i really understand what we mean by the phrase "religious imagination", but it seems to be something that supports our faith even if it is not always rationally defensible
i understand and respect and value your own sensibility of God being beyond our comprehension
i think there was something about that sensibility that attracted me
in my experiences in benedictine monasteries
the quiet faithfulness to prayer demonstrated by the daily communal praying of the liturgy of the hours
can provide a necessary anchor to balance and support a spirituality that emphasizes God as an intimate friend who makes his dwelling place in us, communicates love and grace to us and gives a personal mission to our lives
To a large extent I have live a God-as-my-friend spirituality. While this type of spirituality has many positive benefits that I still value, it can lead to an anxiety that perhaps what I call "God" is simply the imaginary friend that I have created for myself. The type of spirituality that you describe can be an antidote to that.
i apologize if I've made your musings into theological notions a
matter of fear and hesitation
you should be more courageous
and less concerned with
the implications of what to me is
a matter of intellectual playfulness
I love your thoughtfulness
your struggle
even your complaints
I feel at times a little selfish
in that it seems only I have the wherewithal
to go to and be with that lively mind
in the blogoshpere
if these hidden coves of trust
where you can say what you want
and respond as you will
to me
are all that's left of blog hopes
well so be it
with regards to you my heart is set
and that's still a bit uncomfortable for me
my whole being naturally stimulated
buy a most beautiful soul
but there's little I can do about it
love being what it is
be valiant
;-)
!
....
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