I do at times partake, but the person dispensing La Pan Sancta lately is.....a female, decked out in her white vestments, with some sweet vino de Episco--not the RCC vintage (like a chianti IICR...a bit sschweet but not like the Episco izz). For that Im probably condemned ( quite a few episco. people joined the RCC 10 yrs ago or so when females were allowed to priest. Again , like 4-5 yr when....er non-heteros were allowed. Our gals hetero, AFAICT ,tho...rumors there are)
Ssrry. I didn't mean to be overly irreverent. Just wondering,given yr liturgical views, what you think of all....these protestant groups, especially now with the fem. clergy (and...the non-hetero)--all equally wrong? Are episcos. as in error as say...baptists, or mormons,etc?
jh and I definitely come from different places on the question of female clergy. I write not to convince, but to document another perspective.
The early church practiced a radical equality, not just in terms of gender, but also in class, that it did not sustain. We all know Galatians 3:28. I think it means what it says: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." It is to me the reservation of the clergy to males that is the aberation from radical early Christian equality, albeit an aberation of very long standing (i.e., it goes back to before the writing of 1st Timothy in the early 2nd century).
It's been my privilege to belong to an "ecclesial community" that embraces the radical equality and unity of the early Christian Church. I have had four(!) female pastors over the past dozen years. Four years ago, my congregation had a female interrim senior pastor, and a female associate in ministry, as our professional staff. It's faint praise to say that all have been competent in the offices of word and sacrament, according to their calls. (AIMs are called to word, but not sacrament). It is more to the point to say that all have been Christ-like in crucial ways, and all have deserved the full measure of respect due to Christ's ordained. This isn't to say that there are no differences between male and female clergy, it is to say that the differences don't matter. Whether the celebrant at Eucharist is male or female, it is Christ who consecrates it, it is Christ who is present, it is Christ's body that we tear with our teeth, and his blood that we drink.
But I will offer some practical advice to J. If you find a female celebrant to be troublesome, then find a congregation that offers a male celebrant. This should not be difficult to do. But if you're comfortable with the female celebrant, be confident that the authenticity of the Eucharist does not rest on the merit of the celebrant, but solely on the authenticity and merit of Christ himself.
i do not want to go there i do not want to broach the subject it is loaded with toxicity for me no no no nono uh no i will not go
it is like a handgrenade on a bridge
the subject the predicate everything is all wrong i will not accept it i will not go there
it is a scourge and a horrible presumption and that's all i'll say
i mean there have been very well meaning almost altruistic terrorists
my challenge stands for a woman to go anywhere near the altar she must speak out vigilantly against chemical birthcontrol and take and ardent stand against all abortion and this must be a proven social policy for 20 years before even a slight consideration could be made
the girls will drive me to a cave
there's always room for improvement in hospitality and meals after funerals those affairs have been slighted in recent years we need to bolster that end up a bit
that's all i'm saying
o
and one more thing i just thing there's this temperament thing that nobody si addressing women are not temperamentally attuned to being celebrants at the altar
just like i they should never be football coaches
well they can box i like it when women fight one another i get a sense that feminism has more to it than i ever acknowledge
but priests Nah ain't gonna happen
there's the social split
there'll never be a useful bridge over that swelling stream
Most of the female pastors Ive run into are pleasant enough but ...to be honest...they tend to be like teachers or counselors--not very preacherly....or priest-like (tho' Dr Johnson's famed quip on women preaching as like..."dogs walking" was a bit harsh) .
In theory, I sort of agree with Stu: females priests/pastors should probably be allowed (and doesn't Timothy provide some justification for that) In practice, however, I don't and respect the RCC for refusing to bend on that issue. And let's just say (keeping it clean, so to speak) --Ive witnessed what happens when liberal female clergy take over a church (one reason for..some skepticism,alas,IMHE). At the same time there are catholic priests who have no business being priests--. They may have cleaned up a bit--but still an issue
fools idiots brainytypes artists businessgeniuses warwonks poets scientists streetbums hobos farm kids alcoholics drugaddicts dilletants mothertypes psychos invisiblegoodguys sargeants younameit everytype of man has been a priest it goes without saying if someone is willing to at least make the gallant effort to toe the line even amid failure well that's always been good enough jesus preferred fishermen street toughs and tax collectors
i'm all for women in active ministry but there's gotta be rules and boundaries the modern argument has not been convincing enough to presume that people should in fact change lighten up a bit step outside the box nope things are what they are and they should always be what they are until life really changes
these times are fraught with peril from all sides let the men stand out in the ritual against the torments of hell the women can run the kitchens the hospitals the school the business the city govt the water works of course the art world they get to run everything OK but not the liturgy nope it cannot willnot mustnot happen nope nope nope nope nope
Most of the female pastors Ive run into are pleasant enough but ...to be honest...they tend to be like teachers or counselors--not very preacherly....or priest-like
We're just more used to the failings and foibles of male pastors/priests. If Father Dominic is a lush and a letcher, we don't jump to the conclusion that men make poor models of Christ. Instead, we say that Dominic is an unworthy priest. Whereas if the Right Reverend Jane has trouble establishing her authority with the Parish Council, we conclude that women don't have what it takes to serve in ordained ministry. As men, we're protected by "the soft bigotry of low expectations," and we protect ourselves by insisting that women be judged en masse by standards that no individual man could meet.
At the other end of the spectrum, I suspect we've all known strong pastors/priests. Folks who have spiritual, moral, and even physical authority. I know that I have, and I've had several female pastors in that number. Unfortunately, experience isn't transitive. But I have experienced female pastors whose sermons reach out from the pulpit and condemn me, confront me with my sin, and show me the way to grace. I've seen 110lbs female pastors whose physical presence in the liturgy is so luminous as to make Gabriel blink. Suffice it to say that the female pastors I've run have done the preacherly/priest-like thing convincingly well.
yeah OK the girls are workign real hard at being so much better in charatcter than the males it's imperative if they want to get what they want to get they want it all they want to manage and control everything adn they do almost except the wonderful little ritual which they will only benefit from if they remain humble attentive lovers and not servants of the rite this is a downturn a demeaning of the basic femeninine character nine nine nine nine why shoudl they want to demean themsleves so to go to that level only useful and meaning ful if ordained by men for motherhood and homeparent ruler of the queenly roost of home is the place and there from there do the study and the reading and the working in the world not in the sancturay for god's sake get them out of there
ok that's all i'm saying
except just one more thing
women shoould not be in the military no women should not be in professional sports no not even on t he sidelines as bimbos not even in the lockerrrrrooms as rporotersrotors rotors rah rah rah not as commentators no it is UUUUGGGGGLLLLLYYY don't let them in there but let them be intellectuals in teh schools let them be creative int eh polis let them be learned and engaged in the kitchens of the world we need more good people in the kitchens good women
we need to completely reorder society it's a mess and the women are largely to blame they screwed it all up i mean it and i won't stand for it anymore nope it's a mess and that's what i will go to the grave lamenting
bakc tot he sacredness of rites and not these glitzxy o so moderne displays of presumption ond equal ritghts and roles no way it won't work unless people are manipulated with chemicals......wait OK wait it might work if peole ar emanipulated with chemicals .,,,,,,hmnh this might work yes it just might work.......hmnh ths is starting to sound great....we coudl do this we can change the world by controlling people with chemicals....and let them think of it as their own selfmade religion and thereby keep them in a completely benighted sate and then,.......OK this will work
enough of this neostoic protestantworkethic puritan imposed discipline no it's time for poets to be freewanderers and singers to hell with everything else
we need to completely reorder society it's a mess and the women are largely to blame they screwed it all up i mean it and i won't stand for it anymore nope it's a mess and that's what i will go to the grave lamenting
I think this is unfair to the women. No, men have been first-class participants in screwing things up, a responsibility that they're only beginning to share. Indeed, I think it likely that the world's always been screwed up, and one age differs from another only in the details of how.
There is no past golden era from which we've fallen, and to which we can aspire to return. Things have always been a mess, and we're always searching for ways that they might be less so.
There is bourgeois feminism ,and one might say..authentic feminism. Not the same. Bourgeois fem. seems embodied by like millionaire news broads--Sawyer ,or Couric, Maddow--or for that matter, Hillary--and they know the Truth ,merely by ...being female--"mommy knows best". The theme could be developed--but it's not fair to say all feminism is..Bour.Fem., jh (though much of it is). Equal pay for equal work for instance seems a genuine concern in many instances--it has been rectified in many areas, but not all.
At times women --say, female writers--are given this weird matriarchical authority that is not merited. IMHE--it's part of the WASP mind in a sense. The Queen of England herself! I don't mean to suggest any ...muslim-like solutions (or Nietzsche ,who called Englishwomen cows) but it's somewhat odd.
That said, misogyny is itself a problem,jh--especially with religious conservatives.
i just want to say nothing is better because the women are now part of the bigger scene medical care is not better because more women are doctors business is not better because women are CEOs politics is definetly not improved because more women are serving (or multitasking... whatever) in govt. the news is discernibly idiotic from where it was 30 years ago because women presume to be there it's just blah blah blah blah and feely meely feely stufff they want to be yoru friend and i can't stomach any of it higher education is not better because more women are teaching at that level literature is not better christianity finally is not better nothing has been improved upon because women have found access to the protestant altars nothing and no one can tell me different i'm sorry i'm convinced of this by what i've seen by what i've noticed by what i've deduced
it's a concept full of presumption that just because women are there they have this higher character this better sense of the role they've brought something more dignified i'm sorry i ain't buyin it nohow never
life is not fair it wasn't fair in the 60s 70s and 80s women took it upon themselves to refashion the world in reaction to injustices to which they believed themselves prone..this was a scourge from which i fear we as a culture will never find adequate earthly redemption it will take something from heaven
the whole feminist push of the past 100 yrs is rooted in a form of cultural dementia and i blame the positivist/humanist agendas which were born out of protestanism
Consider Dr Sally herself, mountaineer and scientist, jh--a challenge to those masculinists who want females to stay in kitchens and the home. Id like to see the usual cafeteria catholic or sunday schooler bag old grayback--a long haul.
sally is extraordinary i certainly would never begrudge the housewife who wishes to climb a mountain or study the rocks all the way up and down i mean why not
you may think i'm misogynistic but i ain't
the mystery of woman is a constant in all my thoughts i feel strongly about what happens to women i think they're being led astray by their own kind i do believe a storehouse of wisdom which was unique to women and understood by women is all but lost and that is a dire state of affairs i do so say
i've no problem with creativity intense reading i do have a problem with the abandonment of home for some sought after good the culture has told you to acquire i ain't buyin any of it the clearest expressions of it all are lady gaga lindsay lohan and amy winehouse
it's the chemical distortion of things i cannot abide
yuck i say
the protestant work ethic set of social ideals has been jammed down our throats long enough the scary thing is human nature seems to yield itself to that sort of vast discipline manipulation at it's worst it is the third reich light and people seem to like it
why is it a presumptuous for women (but not men?) to engage in science or medicine or news reporting or higher education or literature?
you have some reasonable points, jh some that i might agree with if you presented them using words that helped me to beleive that you actually care about the well-being of women (as some of the words in your most recent comment do) and that you are willing to work collaboratively with women to address the problems that you point out
it's easy to find fault and to place blame but blaming women for the woes of today's american society without making an honest attempt to understand the issues behind the feminist movement and without being willing to listen compassionately to why some women might want to do things outside the home is likely to just add fuel to the fire and to increase the types of feminist thinking that you abhor
but if you just want to vent about what upsets you in the privacy of your own blog that's fine by me
i never thought i'd see the day when J is the one exerting a moderating influence!
Rare but it happens. Some of the most inspirational females Ive met were nature-science types into hiking, skiing, etc.
At Yosemite many of the bigwall climbers are now females. OR Joshua Tree-- -yll see gals do very difficult friction climbs-like class 5-11 etc while ...most of the guys can't even try them (myself included. I still hike/peakbag but wall-climb days over.)
bluster bluster bluster well you're talking to buster bluster here get me going bluster indeed
it's too much for this blog post this blog post is meant to be merely a simple curious thought provokation not some springboard to social dialectical rhetorical roompahpah whatever that is
anyway what's the use i know i never get taken seriously by anyone anymore ah well here's my sad clownface here's my little teeny weeny violin life is so sad
eeeeeeeeeeoooowwwwwhwhwwyyyyyeeeeeeeeeee ee ee e eee wreeeeeeee
those are little violin sounds in case you don't know
let me lean one more time on the icon argument the icon or "image" of christ is that of a male with a beard and that is important it is meant to be manifest in a very simple relationship the fact that a male face is a male face and god chose to give expression in terms of himself as a male and is depicted most directly and notably in art and liturgy as male as a son
now this defies the gender argument completely it is not about that we take the raw data and we live with it we incorporate that into our awareness jesus was not a woman at the last supper that's all i'm sayin
and the blessed mother is a female and that is that
now women have an opportunity to love christ in ways that i think are much different than the male approach and it is natural that they should do so if they want to love the best king around better than elvis better than king sonny ade' better than any worldly king he is the greatest and should be loved by women in a way that men cannot approach we love the guy as our quarterback or our smiling pal on the battlefield of life and that's why he get's to be the image the person at the altar the only one that will work it is a male face and i cannot look at a female face and say o it's just the same thing i just cannot and i will not but set me in a kitchen and i will be a devoted friend and disciple of any woman who shows some ability there--- i will gladly serve any woman who is being martha or mary and not think twice of the cost
women philosophers - love em women poets - love em women teachers - love em women singers - llove em women pilgrims - love em women workers - love em women guitarists - love em women comedians - love em
i love em all
women must not shoot guns women must not force themselves into men's clothes when their bodies are meant for other kinds of clothing nor shoudl men do the girl dress thing yuck won't have it even though i wear a long black dress it's different even though it might be argued that liturgical clothing may look better on woman i won't buy it it is a superficial argument women must not defy their femininityityityity for soem strange modern ideal of liberated femininity
we all are what we are and we have the stuff that god made us with and that designates and dtermines how we face the world i don't care what the behaviourists have said about the ambiguity of the soul the reality is this is this is this and that's all there is multicolored and numerous and infinite and surprising and all that but when it comes right down to it it is what it is and being was never meant to be metaphysically anything else under the sun
the altar is in the world and jesus is a male and that is that
does that mean a woman cannot run a whole diocese - absolutely not - it happens and can continue to happen
but a woman cannot be pregnant at the altar no way i won't have it
Speaking of women writersMary Austin wrote eloquently of the Southwest desert, sierras and natives--a bit purply (probably would not please a Curtis Faville, or Kirby's little beatniks) and perhaps not real..pious--but quite evocative. Ive been by her house in Independence. Later in life she was a member of the Monterey liter-rarry scene, and knew Jack London , Bierce,etc.
hard to stay on topic the quote says a lot it entails more than it says
words of devastation words of disarming love words of incredulosity words of hope
if these discussions continue i will be forced to become more obtuse and esoteric i will be forced to explore the margins of rhetorical possibilities and then then then nobody will be able to say anything we'll all be speechless
so tread lightly this is a warning i can be obtuse and then i tire of that and i get vague and even ethereal if not downright cryptic
The New Testament was written in koine greek, jh--as averred St Augustine hisself. Aramaic was more or less persian streetspeak (and the Ar. peshittas--odd looking things)
there are aramaic direct quotes throughout the gospels even st jerome knew that
it is safe to say that the first generation of gospel speakers transmitting the news orally spoke in the streets of palestine in the tongue to which they were most accustomed
the recognition of aramaic connects us to the east
the oldest formal christian liturgies are syriac and armenian
There are quotes in Aramaic but the writing of the NT was in Koine (Aug.'s opinions of Jerry--a slav, IIRC-- are still worth considering for a few nano-seconds as well). Biblical scholar Im not but I doubt aramaic or hebrew (what become hebrew--not really an established language until after 4-5 AD) had much of a lexicon or grammar as did greek and latin (and aramaic was sort of bureaucratic tongue--accounting records, however many shekels for wheat, weapons, slaves,etc etc) . And ...assuming the Apostles had any schooling at all or were in the markets of judea ,the ports, they would have known Koine gk., and probably a good bit of latin (ie, the cops' speech). The jews were hellenized as well. Its part of the bogus sunday school tradition that they were just illiterate goatherds etc.--( the roman skeptics,Tacitus,et al said that--but it seems ...fairly reasonable to assume a... Peter knew some latin, gk,etc)
29 comments:
words from my mentor
my hunch was mostly correct: pellogrino, italian from latin "peregrine" (as with falcon)--cognate with Eng. wandering,migratory and ...pilgrim
to one's who's starving (wandering or not) one of those holy crackers ain't much of a meal, padre
i know people who have survived for days on the faith of one bread shared
it has a way of multiplying
i know people who have survived for days on the faith of one bread shared
it has a way of multiplying
I do at times partake, but the person dispensing La Pan Sancta lately is.....a female, decked out in her white vestments, with some sweet vino de Episco--not the RCC vintage (like a chianti IICR...a bit sschweet but not like the Episco izz). For that Im probably condemned ( quite a few episco. people joined the RCC 10 yrs ago or so when females were allowed to priest. Again , like 4-5 yr when....er non-heteros were allowed. Our gals hetero, AFAICT ,tho...rumors there are)
Ssrry. I didn't mean to be overly irreverent. Just wondering,given yr liturgical views, what you think of all....these protestant groups, especially now with the fem. clergy (and...the non-hetero)--all equally wrong? Are episcos. as in error as say...baptists, or mormons,etc?
heretics all of them
burn them at the stake
i call for a new inquisition
we'll get this right eventually
heaven is being taken by storm
of course
we must resist
i don't know
i mean
what are people to do
in ignorance we draw forth
ignorance parading around as
doctrinal certainty
or
the way god must want it
we make god in our image
terrible mistake
lord have mercy
it seems to have worked in the past
how about now
yaddayadda yadda
!
jh and I definitely come from different places on the question of female clergy. I write not to convince, but to document another perspective.
The early church practiced a radical equality, not just in terms of gender, but also in class, that it did not sustain. We all know Galatians 3:28. I think it means what it says: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." It is to me the reservation of the clergy to males that is the aberation from radical early Christian equality, albeit an aberation of very long standing (i.e., it goes back to before the writing of 1st Timothy in the early 2nd century).
It's been my privilege to belong to an "ecclesial community" that embraces the radical equality and unity of the early Christian Church. I have had four(!) female pastors over the past dozen years. Four years ago, my congregation had a female interrim senior pastor, and a female associate in ministry, as our professional staff. It's faint praise to say that all have been competent in the offices of word and sacrament, according to their calls. (AIMs are called to word, but not sacrament). It is more to the point to say that all have been Christ-like in crucial ways, and all have deserved the full measure of respect due to Christ's ordained. This isn't to say that there are no differences between male and female clergy, it is to say that the differences don't matter. Whether the celebrant at Eucharist is male or female, it is Christ who consecrates it, it is Christ who is present, it is Christ's body that we tear with our teeth, and his blood that we drink.
But I will offer some practical advice to J. If you find a female celebrant to be troublesome, then find a congregation that offers a male celebrant. This should not be difficult to do. But if you're comfortable with the female celebrant, be confident that the authenticity of the Eucharist does not rest on the merit of the celebrant, but solely on the authenticity and merit of Christ himself.
zit zit cognitive breakbeep beep beep zzszszszsszs
zapowee
clikcliksitszzzzzzz
no non non none no nononono
i do not want to go there
i do not want to broach the subject
it is loaded with toxicity for me
no no no nono
uh no i will not go
it is like a handgrenade on a bridge
the subject the predicate everything is all wrong
i will not accept it
i will not go there
it is a scourge and a horrible presumption
and that's all i'll say
i mean there have been very well meaning almost altruistic terrorists
my challenge stands
for a woman to go anywhere near the altar
she must speak out vigilantly against chemical birthcontrol and take and ardent stand against all abortion and this must be a proven social policy for 20 years before even a slight consideration could be made
the girls will drive me to a cave
there's always room for improvement in hospitality and meals after funerals
those affairs have been slighted in recent years
we need to bolster that end up a bit
that's all i'm saying
o
and one more thing
i just thing there's this temperament thing that nobody si addressing
women are not temperamentally attuned to being celebrants at the altar
just like i they should never be football coaches
well
they can box i like it when women fight one another i get a sense that feminism has more to it than i ever acknowledge
but priests
Nah
ain't gonna happen
there's the social split
there'll never be a useful bridge
over that swelling stream
that's all i'm sayin
yadda yadda yadda
jh
Most of the female pastors Ive run into are pleasant enough but ...to be honest...they tend to be like teachers or counselors--not very preacherly....or priest-like (tho' Dr Johnson's famed quip on women preaching as like..."dogs walking" was a bit harsh) .
In theory, I sort of agree with Stu: females priests/pastors should probably be allowed (and doesn't Timothy provide some justification for that) In practice, however, I don't and respect the RCC for refusing to bend on that issue. And let's just say (keeping it clean, so to speak) --Ive witnessed what happens when liberal female clergy take over a church (one reason for..some skepticism,alas,IMHE). At the same time there are catholic priests who have no business being priests--. They may have cleaned up a bit--but still an issue
(Hola Sally)
fools idiots brainytypes artists businessgeniuses warwonks poets scientists streetbums hobos farm kids alcoholics drugaddicts dilletants mothertypes psychos invisiblegoodguys sargeants younameit everytype of man has been a priest it goes without saying if someone is willing to at least make the gallant effort to toe the line even amid failure well that's always been good enough jesus preferred fishermen street toughs and tax collectors
i'm all for women in active ministry
but there's gotta be rules and boundaries
the modern argument has not been convincing enough to presume that people should in fact change lighten up a bit step outside the box nope
things are what they are and they should always be what they are until life really changes
these times are fraught with peril from all sides
let the men stand out in the ritual
against the torments of hell
the women can run the kitchens the hospitals the school the business the city govt the water works of course the art world they get to run everything OK but not the liturgy nope it cannot willnot mustnot happen
nope nope nope nope nope
that's all i'm saying on the matter
J writes,
Most of the female pastors Ive run into are pleasant enough but ...to be honest...they tend to be like teachers or counselors--not very preacherly....or priest-like
We're just more used to the failings and foibles of male pastors/priests. If Father Dominic is a lush and a letcher, we don't jump to the conclusion that men make poor models of Christ. Instead, we say that Dominic is an unworthy priest. Whereas if the Right Reverend Jane has trouble establishing her authority with the Parish Council, we conclude that women don't have what it takes to serve in ordained ministry. As men, we're protected by "the soft bigotry of low expectations," and we protect ourselves by insisting that women be judged en masse by standards that no individual man could meet.
At the other end of the spectrum, I suspect we've all known strong pastors/priests. Folks who have spiritual, moral, and even physical authority. I know that I have, and I've had several female pastors in that number. Unfortunately, experience isn't transitive. But I have experienced female pastors whose sermons reach out from the pulpit and condemn me, confront me with my sin, and show me the way to grace. I've seen 110lbs female pastors whose physical presence in the liturgy is so luminous as to make Gabriel blink. Suffice it to say that the female pastors I've run have done the preacherly/priest-like thing convincingly well.
yeah OK the girls are workign real hard at being so much better in charatcter than the males it's imperative if they want to get what they want to get they want it all they want to manage and control everything adn they do almost except the wonderful little ritual which they will only benefit from if they remain humble attentive lovers and not servants of the rite this is a downturn a demeaning of the basic femeninine character nine nine nine nine why shoudl they want to demean themsleves so to go to that level only useful and meaning ful if ordained by men for motherhood and homeparent ruler of the queenly roost of home is the place and there from there do the study and the reading and the working in the world not in the sancturay for god's sake get them out of there
ok that's all i'm saying
except just one more thing
women shoould not be in the military no
women should not be in professional sports no
not even on t he sidelines as bimbos
not even in the lockerrrrrooms as rporotersrotors rotors rah rah rah not as commentators no it is UUUUGGGGGLLLLLYYY don't let them in there but let them be intellectuals in teh schools let them be creative int eh polis let them be learned and engaged in the kitchens of the world we need more good people in the kitchens good women
we need to completely reorder society it's a mess
and the women are largely to blame they screwed it all up i mean it and i won't stand for it anymore
nope it's a mess and that's what i will go to the grave lamenting
bakc tot he sacredness of rites
and not these glitzxy o so moderne displays of presumption ond equal ritghts and roles no way it won't work unless people are manipulated with chemicals......wait OK wait it might work if peole ar emanipulated with chemicals .,,,,,,hmnh this might work yes it just might work.......hmnh ths is starting to sound great....we coudl do this we can change the world by controlling people with chemicals....and let them think of it as their own selfmade religion and thereby keep them in a completely benighted sate and then,.......OK this will work
enough of this neostoic protestantworkethic puritan imposed discipline no it's time for poets to be freewanderers and singers to hell with everything else
see ya
jh
jh,
we need to completely reorder society it's a mess
and the women are largely to blame they screwed it all up i mean it and i won't stand for it anymore
nope it's a mess and that's what i will go to the grave lamenting
I think this is unfair to the women. No, men have been first-class participants in screwing things up, a responsibility that they're only beginning to share. Indeed, I think it likely that the world's always been screwed up, and one age differs from another only in the details of how.
There is no past golden era from which we've fallen, and to which we can aspire to return. Things have always been a mess, and we're always searching for ways that they might be less so.
There is bourgeois feminism ,and one might say..authentic feminism. Not the same. Bourgeois fem. seems embodied by like millionaire news broads--Sawyer ,or Couric, Maddow--or for that matter, Hillary--and they know the Truth ,merely by ...being female--"mommy knows best". The theme could be developed--but it's not fair to say all feminism is..Bour.Fem., jh (though much of it is). Equal pay for equal work for instance seems a genuine concern in many instances--it has been rectified in many areas, but not all.
At times women --say, female writers--are given this weird matriarchical authority that is not merited. IMHE--it's part of the WASP mind in a sense. The Queen of England herself! I don't mean to suggest any ...muslim-like solutions (or Nietzsche ,who called Englishwomen cows) but it's somewhat odd.
That said, misogyny is itself a problem,jh--especially with religious conservatives.
lord spare me
i just want to say
nothing is better because the women are now part of the bigger scene
medical care is not better because more women are doctors
business is not better because women are CEOs
politics is definetly not improved because more women are serving (or multitasking... whatever) in govt.
the news is discernibly idiotic from where it was 30 years ago
because women presume to be there it's just blah blah blah blah and feely meely feely stufff they want to be yoru friend and i can't stomach any of it higher education is not better because more women are teaching at that level
literature is not better
christianity finally is not better nothing has been improved upon because women have found access to the protestant altars
nothing
and no one can tell me different i'm sorry i'm convinced of this by what i've seen by what i've noticed by what i've deduced
it's a concept full of presumption that just because women are there they have this higher character this better sense of the role they've brought something more dignified
i'm sorry i
ain't buyin it nohow never
life is not fair
it wasn't fair in the 60s 70s and 80s women took it upon themselves to refashion the world in reaction to injustices to which they believed themselves prone..this was a scourge from which i fear we as a culture will never find adequate earthly redemption it will take something from heaven
the whole feminist push of the past 100 yrs is rooted in a form of cultural dementia and i blame the positivist/humanist agendas which were born out of protestanism
ah well
i always have the cave
jh
Consider Dr Sally herself, mountaineer and scientist, jh--a challenge to those masculinists who want females to stay in kitchens and the home. Id like to see the usual cafeteria catholic or sunday schooler bag old grayback--a long haul.
sally is extraordinary
i certainly would never begrudge the housewife who wishes to climb a mountain or study the rocks all the way up and down
i mean why not
you may think i'm misogynistic
but i ain't
the mystery of woman is a constant in all my thoughts
i feel strongly about what happens to women
i think they're being led astray by their own kind i do believe a storehouse of wisdom which was unique to women and understood by women is all but lost and that is a dire state of affairs i do so say
i've no problem with creativity intense reading
i do have a problem with the abandonment of home
for some sought after good the culture has told you to acquire
i ain't buyin any of it
the clearest expressions of it all are lady gaga lindsay lohan and amy winehouse
it's the chemical distortion of things i cannot abide
yuck i say
the protestant work ethic set of social ideals has been jammed down our throats long enough
the scary thing is human nature seems to yield itself to that sort of vast discipline manipulation at it's worst it is the third reich light
and people seem to like it
yo
jh
gee jh
you're really on a roll here
pushing the boundaries of absurdity
as you like to do
i'm glad to see you enjoying yourself
;-)
i never thought i'd see the day
when J is the one exerting
a moderating influence!
(Hola J)
and thanks stu
for your sane comments
as always
i learn a lot from them
ok i wrote that last comment
before jh and J's latest exchange
i see J's moderatation
is having some effect on jh
getting him to lay aside his bluster
and speak more seriously
you may think i'm misogynistic
but i ain't
because women presume to be there
why is it a presumptuous
for women (but not men?)
to engage in science
or medicine or news reporting
or higher education or literature?
you have some reasonable points, jh
some that i might agree with
if you presented them
using words that helped me to beleive
that you actually care about
the well-being of women
(as some of the words in your most recent comment do)
and that you are willing to work
collaboratively with women
to address the problems that you point out
it's easy to find fault
and to place blame
but blaming women for the woes
of today's american society
without making an honest attempt
to understand the issues behind
the feminist movement
and without being willing to listen compassionately
to why some women might want
to do things outside the home
is likely to just add fuel to the fire
and to increase the types of feminist thinking
that you abhor
but if you just want to vent
about what upsets you
in the privacy of your own blog
that's fine by me
i never thought i'd see the day
when J is the one exerting
a moderating influence!
Rare but it happens. Some of the most inspirational females Ive met were nature-science types into hiking, skiing, etc.
At Yosemite many of the bigwall climbers are now females. OR Joshua Tree-- -yll see gals do very difficult friction climbs-like class 5-11 etc while ...most of the guys can't even try them (myself included. I still hike/peakbag but wall-climb days over.)
bluster bluster bluster well you're talking to buster bluster here get me going bluster indeed
it's too much for this blog post this blog post is meant to be merely a simple curious thought provokation not some springboard to social dialectical rhetorical roompahpah whatever that is
anyway
what's the use
i know i never get taken seriously by anyone anymore ah well
here's my sad clownface
here's my little teeny weeny violin
life is so sad
eeeeeeeeeeoooowwwwwhwhwwyyyyyeeeeeeeeeee ee ee e eee wreeeeeeee
those are little violin sounds in case you don't know
let me lean one more time on the icon argument
the icon or "image" of christ is that of a male with a beard and that is important it is meant to be manifest in a very simple relationship the fact that a male face is a male face and god chose to give expression in terms of himself as a male and is depicted most directly and notably in art and liturgy as male as a son
now this defies the gender argument completely
it is not about that
we take the raw data and we live with it we incorporate that into our awareness
jesus was not a woman at the last supper
that's all i'm sayin
and the blessed mother is a female and that is that
now women have an opportunity to love christ in ways that i think are much different than the male approach and it is natural that they should do so if they want to love the best king around better than elvis better than king sonny ade' better than any worldly king he is the greatest and should be loved by women in a way that men cannot approach we love the guy as our quarterback or our smiling pal on the battlefield of life and that's why he get's to be the image the person at the altar the only one that will work it is a male face and i cannot look at a female face and say o it's just the same thing i just cannot and i will not but set me in a kitchen and i will be a devoted friend and disciple of any woman who shows some ability there--- i will gladly serve any woman who is being martha or mary and not think twice of the cost
women philosophers - love em
women poets - love em
women teachers - love em
women singers - llove em
women pilgrims - love em
women workers - love em
women guitarists - love em
women comedians - love em
i love em all
women must not shoot guns
women must not force themselves into men's clothes when their bodies are meant for other kinds of clothing nor shoudl men do the girl dress thing yuck won't have it even though i wear a long black dress it's different even though it might be argued that liturgical clothing may look better on woman
i won't buy it it is a superficial argument
women must not defy their femininityityityity for soem strange modern ideal of liberated femininity
we all are what we are and we have the stuff that god made us with and that designates and dtermines how we face the world i don't care what the behaviourists have said about the ambiguity of the soul the reality is this is this is this
and that's all there is
multicolored and numerous and infinite and surprising and all that but when it comes right down to it it is what it is
and being was never meant to be metaphysically anything else under the sun
the altar is in the world and jesus is a male and that is that
does that mean a woman cannot run a whole diocese - absolutely not - it happens and can continue to happen
but a woman cannot be pregnant at the altar
no way i won't have it
oh well
what's the use'
sound - fury- anyone ?
don't get me started
jh
Speaking of women writersMary Austin wrote eloquently of the Southwest desert, sierras and natives--a bit purply (probably would not please a Curtis Faville, or Kirby's little beatniks) and perhaps not real..pious--but quite evocative. Ive been by her house in Independence. Later in life she was a member of the Monterey liter-rarry scene, and knew Jack London , Bierce,etc.
hard to stay on topic
the quote says a lot
it entails more than it says
words of devastation
words of disarming love
words of incredulosity
words of hope
if these discussions continue i will be forced to become more obtuse and esoteric i will be forced to explore the margins of rhetorical possibilities and then then then nobody will be able to say anything we'll all be speechless
so tread lightly
this is a warning
i can be obtuse and then i tire of that and i get vague and even ethereal if not downright cryptic
jh
Aramaic ,eh
The New Testament was written in koine greek, jh--as averred St Augustine hisself. Aramaic was more or less persian streetspeak (and the Ar. peshittas--odd looking things)
there are aramaic direct quotes throughout the gospels
even st jerome knew that
it is safe to say that the first generation of gospel speakers transmitting the news orally spoke in the streets of palestine in the tongue to which they were most accustomed
the recognition of aramaic
connects us to the east
the oldest formal christian liturgies are syriac and armenian
that's that
jh
There are quotes in Aramaic but the writing of the NT was in Koine (Aug.'s opinions of Jerry--a slav, IIRC-- are still worth considering for a few nano-seconds as well). Biblical scholar Im not but I doubt aramaic or hebrew (what become hebrew--not really an established language until after 4-5 AD) had much of a lexicon or grammar as did greek and latin (and aramaic was sort of bureaucratic tongue--accounting records, however many shekels for wheat, weapons, slaves,etc etc) . And ...assuming the Apostles had any schooling at all or were in the markets of judea ,the ports, they would have known Koine gk., and probably a good bit of latin (ie, the cops' speech). The jews were hellenized as well. Its part of the bogus sunday school tradition that they were just illiterate goatherds etc.--( the roman skeptics,Tacitus,et al said that--but it seems ...fairly reasonable to assume a... Peter knew some latin, gk,etc)
Post a Comment