“The moral decline of a religion
begins when it creates a hell,
a place of punishment
and torment
where those who are different must go.”
philip gulley - quaker brother
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15 comments:
i think i have his book
started it
then got distracted with other reading
i didn't get far enough to come across this quote yet
i saw the name on your reading list
What good's a religion without a Hell to put the infidels in, and keep the reprobates in line? (actually sort of serious)
(Hi S.)
i guess if one posits
a faith that carries with it the
declaration that god
wills to redeem his creation
and is willing to extend his mercy to the depths of hell
hell become impertinant
As a speculation, interesting, but isn't a denial of perdition heretical per the RCC? You sound nearly...boodhistic at times, hermano.
For sheer metaphorical power, you can't beat the catholic inferno.
in paradiso
dante becomes aware
that christ's sacrifice entails
the redemption of hell
catholic liturgy expresses this
is it possible to place limits
on god's mercy
hell is useful as literary element
and it proves useful in understanding human desolation
but if we really think about i mean really think about
that is really a result of the imagination hell is
it is useful to imagine hell
as ignatius loyola directs us
but then we realize
christ present there as well
heaven will surprise us with
who is there
jh
Hi J
interesting conversation
jh's words of grace appeal to me
my heart says that they must be true
we are all sinners
how can we who have been forgiven
deny mercy to others?
i will admit to being buddhist
or at least to leaning in that direction
but jh's words seem
utterly christian to me
they resonate with teachings
i have heard at valyermo
teachings that took my breath away
presenting a christianity
that i had always sensed must be true
but had not until then heard preached
it was words like these
that have drawn me
toward the catholic church
catholicism seems to be able
to set forth this extravagant hope
in god's ability to redeem even hell
while also maintaining
a realistic view of human nature
and also struggling to hold all this together
with entire tradition of christianity
i think the reason i stopped reading
phillip gulley's book
is that it seemed like he was going
to take the tack
of reinventing christianity
to be the way he wants it to be
with no regard for the past tradition
of the church
i think i've decided
to first see
how the catholic church
holds all this together
and if that doesn't work out
maybe i'll come back to
phillip gulley
Pro-theologian Im not but the "neo-universalism" movement--seen in both catholics and protestants--seems fairly recent. The RCC does not uphold universalism (ie, everyone will be saved/go to heaven)--didn't Pope Ratz. recently condemn it?. And Scripture says "narrow is the gate" does it not.
Were you a hindu mother who survived an attack by..Timur-lane (14th century..or instantiate Hitler , etc), you'd definitely imagine Tim. in hell for eternity. Tim. and his mongol hordes swept over the Himalaya and then proceeded to kill tens of thousands of hindus and buddhists--at times 10,000 a day or more, their heads piled up into pyramids, and then raped pillaged plundered,etc. Perhaps Tim. is not boiling in a vat--or buried under ice (ala Caiaphas in the Inferno) ..but it's probably better to keep him in a dark, horrible place along with Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots, Jerry Sanduskys so forth.
i think it may be important to make a judgement about where people are in the economy of salvation from within the ranks of those who choose to go in with the tradition of covenant
for those who don't
i can't believe it could matter much at all
jh
A bit unclear on that--you're not saying the universalism issue only matters to catholics who attend Mass every week are you? With that, I disagree. So, someone who stops participating in Mass for a few weeks--or even months, or joins say the...methodists--and they're no longer a "Christian", and equal to Hitler,etc? No,jh. Th.Jefferson rejected the RC sacraments but was not therefore a Hitler (and regardlesss of how many eucharists a Hitler swallowed down or...other brutal tyrants they aren't redeemed-- Luther the peasant was not completely mistaken in that regard).
i merely state that
a personal commitment
allows for perceptions
that are invisible impossible for those
who look in from the outside
katholicos = universal
the truths of catholicism relate to the experiences and understandings of all people
by the very definition
it cannot be localized or merely personalized
what is true for christ
is true for every human
save for the fact that we are benighted
and he was not
god does not make the comparisons we make
each person is willed
each person is destined
our greatest strength cannot apprehend god's deepest weakness
i'm merely saying
if a person does not believe
the teachings of the faith
surely cannot matter much
you're probably correct--no religion is a perfectly rational system, including RC. thanks for yr insights.
in a recent post by sally
she explores with catherine of genoa
the value of purgatory
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